SuperManager: Increasing Employee Enthusiasm and Loyalty
Christine: You’re listening to super manager, the podcast for people who manage people and business with ideas, trends, and expert interviews to help you be a super manager.
Sam: I found for me personally, enthusiasm and loyalty first are two different things. With enthusiasm, my opinion, it’s about having specific goals and victories that they can meet and as far as loyalty goes, I feel like you get what you give and that’s what we’re going to be talking about this week is employee enthusiasm and loyalty and how do we get and keep it. I am Samantha Naes with CN video. We do corporate video production and I have with me my group of super friends,
Vicki: Victoria Wars go by Vicki. Wars Consulting, a human resources consultancy.
Sally: Sally Bowls, Prefix Technologies. We work with small and medium sized businesses to alleviate the headaches and financial risk associated with technology.
Natalie: Natalie Meyer, president of Hoopayz, we advocate for your company, your employees, HR and your brokers.
Joel: Joel Emery with Ignite Strategies. I serve as a sale systems architect for small and midsize businesses, helping them grow their revenue streams.
Kurt: Kurt Kenny with the Alliance Technologies, managed services provider. Also I’m running the consulting practice for small to medium businesses.
Vicki: Unfortunately, employees have a generation above them, their parents that they got to watch being laid off after 25 years, 30 years. They got to see how loyalty has not been, how would we say, rewarded, valued. And then that’s one aspect.
Sam: Do you think that’s really the cause though. I mean,
Vicki: Well going back to the other issue, most new hires, if they’re college educated, have got to have a job to pay all of that student debt. That is something that’s over their heads and to be laid off or cut loose with little or no notice will absolutely devastate them on top of that, especially from the tech field, if they stay with an organization more than two or three years and the organization has not provided them development, provided them continued knowledge, growth, they have to leave or they will not be marketable anymore. So you’re dealing with a couple of kind of interesting approaches there. Do you find that Sally and your,
Sally: We are constantly learning. It’s a daily thing because if we don’t, we’re behind.
Vicki: But you offer that to your employees and by slowly by doing that, that’s a kind of a built in retention right there, isn’t it?
Sally: Well, if you don’t stay ahead of your field, you can’t serve your clients. And that’s our philosophy.
Vicki: That’s correct.
Sally: But I do think that there’s a huge, and I mean huge, probably two generations there that have watched their parents go through and get to that age of in between 50 and 60 and suddenly laid off. And I think that they’re causing people to be,
Sam: You’re saying you think that employees coming into the workforce don’t trust employers?
Sally: No. No, not at all. Right. I think that they probably have instilled in them that they need to look out for themselves more, whether that’s through education or training for that next promotion up where there was an older generation who thought if they stayed long enough, they would get to that next level, be recognized.
Sam: But what’s the difference? Because it sounds like when you say that you’re taught to look out for yourself, what you’re saying is that you not to trust your employer.
sally: No, I don’t mean that at all. By look up for yourself. I mean figure out if you want that next promotion, what does that take?
Sam: Oh, okay.
Sally: What do you need to do for yourself? Where I think, and if particularly like my parents’ generation, I think if you stayed at a company long enough and you were noticed by your boss, they didn’t have to toot their own horn. They didn’t have to do their own homework. They were kind of led along in the corporation because most of them stayed 35 40 years. Now if you’re a young person out of college and you’re in a large corporation, you kind of have to figure out for yourself, where do I want to go and what do I need to do and hopefully you work for someplace that’s going to either offer that, whether it’s continuing education, taking an evening course. What do you do to better yourself? I don’t think anybody’s waiting anymore for their manager to tell them.
Sam: So you’re not talking about someone just entering a new job. You’re talking about someone who’s been with the company for awhile. What keeps their loyalty and what keeps them is continuing to grow and learn more and be more valuable.
Sally: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if you’re not meant to feel that way, those are the people that are going to be looking. Yeah. But I do think the younger generation is more in tune to reaching out and asking questions to better themselves versus waiting for HR or a manager to tell them. And I personally think it’s great.
Vicki: Well actually there are groups out there when in particular I know that that’s what they catered to. They cater to currently employed individuals who want to continue to develop themselves while they are employed. But they’re not being offered that within their organization.
Sam: I was talking to a friend of mine who does recruiting and she was saying that the best finds are the ones that are currently employed because you get the job hoppers, the people that get there and it wasn’t what they expected and they leave and they don’t quite yet have the commitments like maybe they’re still living at home with their parents and so those are not what she considers to be the best finds, but the ones that are with an employer that have been there for awhile and they’re getting to that level where they’re starting to feel unappreciated and like they’re falling behind people who are entering the workforce, those are the best ones for offering them new opportunities because going somewhere else can often offer them what they’re not getting with their current employer.
Natalie: It’s very true. I have a friend of mine that was just not happy with her job and she called me the other morning as I was walking my dog. I was like five 30 or something. I’m like, why is she calling me? She was on her way to work. Yeah, she was very, she go in early so she can get home to pick up her kids and stuff like that. And so she was just like, I just wanna quit. And I was like, well your to finding a new job are better if you stay employed then if you wait and then go looking, you know. And I think it also just kills the, you’re talking about enthusiasm at the beginning. And I think sometimes it’s also just that natural, like how to keep the wheels churning and when you’re in the mentality of working, keeps you going and then to stay enthused . I think it also goes back to,
Sam: That’s great advice for your friend, but what about what that does to the organization? So you’ve got somebody who really hates their job, doesn’t give a crap about it anymore, but is sticking it out until their next good opportunity comes along. How good of a job are they doing for the organization?
Natalie: Yeah. Well, she got moved to a new manager and I said, well you never know. This person could be amazing and you really should hold out and wait. And see, I mean if you want to look or something on the side, but don’t necessarily rule out the fact just because you had a bad manager before, but this person is also going to be bad.
Sally: The right manager can make any job wonderful.
Natalie: Agreed. We talk about loyalty and enthusiasm. I think if you have the right managers, you may not be loyal to the company, but you’re loyal. You know, I’ve known a number of people that once that manager left, they were like, well I’m leaving.
Sam: That’s a whole other level. Because we, I was thinking along the lines of benefits in the way it works in the office and how do you keep people loyal? But you’re talking about what kind of like what I said, you get what you give if you’ve got good managers that are loyal to the employees, but now we’re talking about going back to management training as being something to create loyalty and enthusiasm.
Natalie: And I do think what you’re saying, I mean the benefits and things of that sort of doing better if you have a good package and things like that.
Sam: But if your boss sucks, it’s kind of hard to be happy about going to work.
Sally: Right. That’s the right manager is gonna nurture their employees and try to mentor them.
Sam: That is a balance though. But mentor is a better word cause you said nurture and I thought well but a job has to get done. Yeah.
Sally: I don’t mean nurture like mothering.
Sam: Right.
Sally: I mean figuring out like you know what? We’re going to have this big project coming up. Who knows this, this, this. What do we need to do? Get the team involved and if people need whether or not it’s going to a continuing lunch and learn or even taken a course. I mean you need to encourage your people to continue to learn so they do stay. Okay.
Vicki: Monitoring performance evaluations from an HR perspective, when you start seeing the performance deteriorate with employees, I’ve been proactive before that I will visit with the employee and ask what was going on. That read a certain level before something’s happening.
Sam: What kind of response do you typically get to something?
Vicki: Yeah, I just don’t feel like I can be doing what I want to do. I’ve decided I want to do something different. At that juncture, if the employee is one that you’re going to lose them one way or the other.
Sam: Right. They’ve already decided they don’t want to do this anymore.
Vicki: I will work with them and we’ll get with the manager and I will say, you’re going to lose this person and this is why and when I have offered them generally with the manager’s approval is I’ll give them 30 days to be finding another job and that they can still be employed as long as they’re doing job and if they have an interview they can have time for an interview.
Sam: Yeah. Sally, you have a surprise look, but I totally agree with what she’s saying. If you’re going to part ways do it on good terms for everyone. Yeah, I agree with that.
Vicki: It’s good for the employer because they don’t have somebody out there badmouthing them. You reduce the level of litigation that could ensue after the fact. You’re monitoring them. As far as any kind of possible destruction or anything they might be doing. The fact that,
Sam: They are on good terms though. It would take a really special person that would do something.
Vicki: But you’re offering that off-ramp. Yeah. Okay.
Sally: And have you seen anybody do that before?
Vicki: I have.
Sally: Or heard of anybody do it before and so I’m like, and that’s been my surprise, look, I was like, Holy cow.
Vicki: I have, and I see people every day that are fired.
Sally: To be honest, it would start with the employee.
Sam: There has to be communication.
Vicki: But again, that gets to the trust of the manager and in my cases, the HR manager or director, it’s building the trust.
Sam: But then how do you stop it before it gets to that point? So an employee has already gotten to the point where they’re like, I’m done with this and it’s great If they could have good communication with their boss and say, okay, here’s how we’re going to phase me out and I’ll train the next person coming in and everybody’s happy. But how do you see the warning signs? What can the manager do? What can the employee do before that happens? And to me it seems like there’s an interesting balance because yeah, you want the employee to feel satisfied with what they’re doing and to feel challenged with what they’re doing. But there is always work that has to be done.
Natalie: I’m kind of curious what your opinion might be because you do sales stuff and I think sometimes Joel. Yeah, like how he continued to keep people inspired. Cause sometimes I think someone after they’ve done sales for the same company for a long time, they’ve made me feel like, okay, I’ve already tried to prospect that people, I’ve already done this and they kind of, they wear down after awhile. So how do you, what’s your approach on if you’ve got someone maybe either a new salesperson or a seasoned salesperson?
Joel: Yeah, I mean I think there’s a handful of things that drive the enthusiasm and loyalty first. No matter what people says. I mean it is, the compensation package, I mean is either the compensation or the opportunity for the compensation, right?
Sally: You are looking at the sales aspect
Joel: So even if they’re not in terms of compensation where they are, do they genuinely see that opportunity to get to the compensation where they want? So that’s going to be first and foremost. After that, a lot of it comes from the way that they’re treated by the managers. You know, you’re coming back to that. Are they treated positively? Are they encouraged and motivated and coached with opportunity to succeed? Are they berated for things? You know, if they’re beat down and berated for not succeeding or for failing, I’m doing air quotes for a or however you want to define it, then they’ll start to shut down frequently and that can make a huge difference.
Sam: Maybe seeing warning signs in the manager, because I’ve noticed this in a lot of occupations where somebody gets worn out with their job, but they stay in the position. Then it starts to affect other people and it can be management, it can be police officers and judges and people that are in authoritative positions. When they get to a point where they’re frustrated and burned out, what do you do to keep that from affecting all the people that count on them or report to them?
Joel: So much of the time it has to do with the positivity from the manager and I mean that’s an oversimplification of any of the context of this.
Sam: Right, but the question was how do you keep the manager positive? If they are burned out what do you do?
Joel: Well a lot of that is the right hire in the first place, I think is a big part of that.
Sam: Most are promoted into the position we’ve talked about that you get promoted again without the proper training, right?
Joel: I think that’s a lot of it, but also as a, you know, whether it’s meaningful work that that manager is doing, whether they, they feel sustained, they feel nurtured, they feel developed, they feel like they have opportunities as well is the core of what they do actually meaningful.
Sam: They’re setting the example of enthusiasm and loyalty by feeling that way themselves. It’s from the top down.
Joel: Right. So it trickles down from the very top. If that manager, it’s almost like the equivalent in the military. There’s the sergeants that you know are responsible for their platoon. If those sergeants are motivated, if those sergeants are on their game, if those sergeants have the right attitude, then their individual troops will do great. If they’re like during the Vietnam war, when, uh, the sergeants became very demoralized for a variety of reasons, then the troops became demoralized and it’s the exact same thing in a business.
Sam: What do you do about a demoralized manager? What can they do? If you’re a manager and you’re feeling demoralized and it’s affecting your department, what do you do about it?
Joel: Well, I think the management, the management needs to, you know, whoever’s above them needs to come up with solutions.
Sam: Keep taking it up.
Joel: It has to keep going up a level, but it’s, I mean, it’s about engaging them. It’s about reengaging them, reigniting them, helping them find that passion, whether it’s in their current job or somewhere else in the company. And I have a great horror story about it for later.
Vicki: Kurt, what have you found? You’re sitting up there politely listening to us waste the air. So,
Kurt: No, I’ve got a lot to say. You touched on some really interesting things. I think that often times the challenge or the problem starts at the very, very top. I’m gonna use an example that somebody may take exception to, but express scripts. That company has been known culturally as a wasteland. Under George Pause. Revolving door of senior talent. The management that is responsible for empowering and encouraging has been just spit out the door so fast that that revolving door spin so fast. It creates its own weather up there.
Joel: It is one of the 10 worst places to work in the country.
Kurt: It’s a toxic place and they’re hugely successful, but they spend through people like they are Kleenex. You don’t fix that problem. Pause was the problem. Now I can’t speak to the new management, but I still see now they’ve got a merger. It’s an entirely different ballgame. To use another example that I do take some exception to because I’ve got some very close friends who are retired senior officers and military full bird colonels. In the military in many cases, especially today’s military. I’m not going back to Vietnam, which was my era. They do an exceptional job of placing people based upon capabilities?
Joel: Oh, I, yes, absolutely. I was just speaking about Vietnam,
Kurt: I have become a huge fan of assessments. I used one just yesterday that pre employment assessment, you guys were touching on this when I came in, are enormously valuable to see if there’s a mutual cultural fit and I don’t care whether you’re talking about the military or $3 million small business. It’s the culture that starts at the very top. The ownership in the C-suite that gives people the motivation and the empowerment to want to do their jobs into wanting to stay. Then you get generational because millennials are trained. I have two of my own, they measured their lifespan and no matter what they’re doing in two to three year increments, it’s immediate gratification. They have no sense of long-term, and that’s gonna be a challenge for our economy in general. I’m generalizing. I think that’s going to be a huge challenge for our economy is these young adults become more ingrained in the infrastructure because I don’t think they’re being equipped at all. Even the communications. I just ran a company that was a turnaround. Everybody was a millennial except for me. Everything, everything they did amongst each other was communications in 250 characters. They have lost the ability to communicate. That gets back to all the challenges that we’re all touching on is if you’re not communicated with or if you don’t have the skillset to understand how to commute.
Vicki: Well, Kurt, at your point on the assessments, which I work with assessments, again, that starts from the top because the top, if you have their profile as far as who they are with their belief patterns and how they operate, that trickles down into the organization because everyone’s going to follow. That’s the lead. That’s the boss. Okay, and you have to understand the personalities are going to work within that particular personality. The biggest problem we have in the United States as we hire in our own image and that is wrong, that’s absolutely wrong. You need to have diversity so that you can have quicker, faster problem solving going on and everybody is having a piece of that. But so many people, and I guess I’m going to be a bit sexist here, and I do apologize. Typically, older men hire younger men that are just like them and they get to live, relive their life through that younger man. That’s where a lot of this goes on. So the idea is broaden your perspective. Well, a qualified
Kurt: I don’t think that is a sexist thing, it’s just that, you know, objectively, I see that being less the case today than it’s been, but I think there’s a value proposition.
Sam: I don’t know if I agree with that.
Natalie: I say that happens in sales a lot, I think because you know, someone’s like, Oh, I was a young hungry salesman,
Vicki: So he’s going to be like me.
Natalie: You know, maybe I’m wrong on that and that might be even male or female. I think in general that happens.
Kurt: Well as to your point about assessments. When I go into a client or when I was running the last company where I did this and learned it, I will never ask a client to do an assessment unless they do it at the ownership level first. I’ve never asked a client to do an assessment that I myself haven’t been through. So you have a level playing field as far as what they’re going to get from that and they can objectify. So I have a CEO right now, an owner of a company who’s going through an assessment with CMA, industrial psychologist, the science is there, and then he’s going to have his number two and number three assessed after he can objectify.
Vicki: I use the Birkman. Yeah. So that is something that is very broad in its use. But anyway, the idea is there is not a go no go on that legally you can’t say because of an assessment, I can’t hire you.
Sam: Okay. So it sounds like this conversation took a little bit different direction than I was thinking. I was thinking it was more about the employee relationship and what they need. But the two things that I really got out of this are, first it comes from the top down. So it’s the attitude of the manager really affects the attitude of the employee and the attitude of the manager’s manager affects the editor and the manager and so on and so forth. And then you’re talking about assessments and that is matching the right person in the right job in the first place. It’s going to keep their loyalty and enthusiasm. Does anybody have a horror story relevant to loyalty or enthusiasm that they’d like to share. All right.
Joel: I have a great one. So a few years ago I did a uh, an assessment on why some sales were decreasing in a product line to know large retail chain that was up the East coast and I visited about 14 locations in four States doing a wide range of research and talking to the managers, the employees, customers, you know, assessing the state of the stores, the environment, all sorts of things. Came back with about a 60 page report in the end. But what the most interesting thing that I discovered happened was about four years prior to this and which is when their sales started decreasing. They had centralized their ordering and distribution process and they had begun sending out planograms on how to arrange the shelves in the stores. So the two things that did, these managers that had been in charge of these stores for 20 or 30 years, their favorite part of their jobs were ordering and restocking and display for their customers. And when they centralized it, they took that away from these front line managers. So they took away their favorite part of their jobs, the parts that are most proud of the parts that they enjoyed the most. And they left them as basically babysitters of minimum wage employees. And as a result of the demoralization that happened with those store managers, the frontline employees were demoralized. And then as a result of the actual customer experience was dramatically lacking.
Sam: And so they did something they thought was going to be an improvement and it completely backfired.
Joel: But because they didn’t take it from a process perspective to engage and educate and inform and include everybody in the implementation of it. They instead just took away these in every single case, these men’s favorite part of their job. One day they suddenly found out it was gone and over the span of the next few years, they stopped caring and I found this from store to store to store the stories, the anecdotes, the ways in which they shared it different slightly, but it all came back to this one quintessential moment where they took both of those things away from their managers at the same time and damage the business.
Sally: What did they do about it.
Joel: Uh, in this case, uh, nothing.
Sam: They almost would hae to hire new managers, with a different job description.
Joel: Yeah, no, I, I honestly, the store needed to declare bankruptcy and do a restructure. They had a whole host of other issues as well.
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